MHAE - Responses to my page

I feel it's only fair to list some of the responses my page has received. No comments from me; I think the people speak for themselves.

From Mountain View, CA.

What you said sounded a little too much of the conversation I had with the woman representing them. I think I'll join other less "matchmakey" kinds of clubs, like maybe the Sierra Club, for example. And Toastmasters in order to battle my shyness.
Adam W.

From parts unknown...

What ever your personal tragedy was, I'm sorry, but you aren't the only person to ever try something new and be less than thrilled later. Wake up and accept that you got what you got and get on with life!! I have been VERY happy with my local Mile High, NOT IN MINN!!! Here things are decidedly different from what you spin and I've had a great time. AND NO I DON'T WORK FOR THEM!!! People see your sad story and accept it as concerning ALL the Mile Highs, BUT IT DOESN'T!! Not all the clubs are the same. Don't be so hard on them with out being specific about WHICH club you mean!!!!! Here they are trying to start a COUPLES club too and it's not in bars or clubs. You can go to this kind of place if you want, but here there's a geat time to be had. I really enjoy the chance to get to so many different things without having to spend all my time LOOKING for them! Plus I get the chance to make friends by seeing the same people again!! So I'm really sorry if you had a bad tme but it seems like you had your shorts in a bunge over money problems , not a lacking club!!!

Your page is a pain, take it down!! be fair!!
"cujo!!"

Dear Mr. Hutchinson,

         I have recently looked at your Web Page "The Rabbit Hutch" www.spacestar.net/users/rabhutch, and was very impressed by your creativity. It certainly looks like a fun page.
         Unfortunately, I cannot be so complimentary regarding your Consumer Warning about Mile High Adventures and Entertainment, an icon on the same page.
         My name is Glenn Millar and I am the President of Mile High Adventures and Entertainment of Northern California, which currently numbers three clubs.
         As you may or may not be aware each Mile High Adventures and Entertainment is independently owned and operated. The club which you joined in Minneapolis is affiliated with us by association only. We have an agreement with them that we will honor their memberships and they will honor ours. (Thus, if you were ever to come to Northern California, you would be welcome to attend Mile High events as a benefit of your membership.)
         Because of the independent operation of each of the clubs, it is unknown to me whether your complaints with the Minneapolis club are in fact accurate.
         I can assure you, however, that the complaints you voice do not apply the clubs in the Northern California. Yet the way you have written your web page, you imply that all Mile High Adventures and Entertainment fall into the same category. In addition, as powerful as the web is, there are millions of people in the San Francisco Bay Area being exposed to your message who think your message is regarding an experience with us rather than the individual experience you had.
         First, let me address your comments as they apply to us:

Our clubs offer between 30-40% free events. These include sports like football and softball, museum tours, hikes, stairwalks, photography shoots, bookclubs, beach days, etc. We do have some "happy hours" at bars, but these are not the majority of our events and even though you could do these events on your own, you could not meet other qualified Mile High members which is typically why people join the club.
We do offer you a discount if you join when you come in. This is a discount off our normal rates and is offered because if you join right away we realize a savings in future sales costs. We do not believe it is high pressure, and anyone is free to join later and pay the normal price. Some have.
We do have you take a personality test. This allows us to 'break the ice" with you and helps us determine what activities would be best for you. For instance if you have a low conformity score we know you will be more interested in high adrenaline exciting events; a low sociability score means you are going to be more comfortable with small groups rather than our larger events. It does not help us determine why you are "unsuccessful at dating". I personally have seen almost every possible combination of scores with some people successful at dating and some not. To suggest what you suggest would make us psychic. We are not.
The three-day right of rescission is regulated by each individual state, because each state determines on their own what they believe is a fair amount of time to change a buying decision. Apparently Minnesota believes this period is only 3 days. In our Northern California clubs, this is not the case.
You note that the contract says that Mile High only need deliver what is in the contract, but not what is said verbally. This is a standard clause, there for the protection of the consumer and regulated by the state. Our clubs, and I suspect the Minneapolis club, deliver far more than the contract says. We also offer a one-year money-back guarantee if a member is not satisfied. Thus, we do stand behind what we say verbally.
We have over 2000 members in the Bay Area. I can assure you there are many, many women in their 20's who join Mile High. In the world we live in, no matter how desirable a person is, it can be very difficult to meet other quality people. To presume that a woman in her 20's can "always get a date" is to presume that she is not at all selective.
Mile High specifically helps out people who are shy through our Event Coordinators who introduce new members to other members until they feel more comfortable. As you have not been to any of our events, you have not seen this process take place.

         I hope I have illustrated that whether or not your complaints with the Minneapolis club are accurate, they are certainly inaccurate regarding Mile High Adventures and Entertainment of Northern California. Your Consumer Warning does not differentiate between the clubs and, whether you intended to harm us or not, the effect is to harm a good organization with which you have had no experience. I hope this was not your intent.
         Therefore, we request that you remove your Consumer Warning or, at very least, note very specifically that your comments are about the Mile High with which you interacted and that you do not have any reason to believe that your beliefs apply to the other clubs. We also request that you initiate this change no later than midnight January 19, 1998.
         As I am sure this whole situation is an honest mistake driven by your frustration with the Minneapolis club, I sincerely hope we can clear it up and move on.
         Thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this matter. Should you wish to speak about this personally, you may contact me at (415) 965-1617.
Sincerely,
Glenn G. Millar
President
Mile High Adventures and Entertainment of Northern California

cc: Joseph Ehrlich - Losch & Ehrlich Attorneys at Law

This anonymous message was sent to my server's webmaster.

Re: Legal Action against Spacestar User

Hello,

I'm writing to inform you one of your users has put up a defamatory web page against Mile High Adventures & Entertainment. His only obvious intent is to smear their name, because he has no legal backing for his claims.
This wouldn't be as big a deal, but he has placed it in the search engines so people undoubtedly find it when searching for Mile High. There are Mile High's across the country and they have witnessed this page and at least one intends legal action. I doubt you want to be caught in a legal battle over one persons grudge, so I'd suggest you have him remove his page immediately. You might want to cancel his account if you can, because he'll still be facing legal action.
Sincerely,
a concerned netizen

(Michael here: I should point out that I'd never received any notice of any legal action. This did arrive shortly after the above letter, which was carbon copied to that organization's lawyer.)

From Silicon Valley

         I walked out after a couple minutes. It reminded me of those time share pitches in Aculpulco.
         I might give them a second chance. But I will be careful about money. I got email from another guy who loved it. He lost money when they closed their doors unexpectedly, but the people he met were so much fun that they went on to form their own club.
         On the other hand, while I was there I overheard a conversation where they were telling a guy that he could not get his money back. They seem pretty sleazy, but if they can provide a new circle of friends I might do it.
         Thank you very much for your warning. I like to think I could have survived without it. But they are very slick con artists. And I don't know how much money I am willing to pay for the purpose of meeting a bunch of other suckers. Of course I could always get an Amway distributorship... then I could probably make my money back ;-)
         I live in Redwood City, work in Cupertino. Both are in Silicon Valley, CA.
         They called me back today. I told them that I might join but was unwilling to put up with the bull____. We'll see if they get back to me.
         My situation sounds pretty different from your. I am 29, divorced, and well employed. The money is not that big of a deal to me, but I don't like getting ripped off. I am also worried about their demographic. I can meet all the losers I want at the bars. I am hoping to meet other people like me. Active, but without a lot of free time. I like the idea of paying someone else to organize social events.
         There are pictures of a scavenger hunt on the web at http://www.tasherana.com/MHAE/Scavenger%20Hunt/index.html It looks like fun. If they have good activities I will join. But I am not going to take crap from them.
Take care,
Dan W.

From the woman who conducted my interview
         Having been involved with Mile High Adventures since May 1996 I have a hard time with your letter. If you would take the time now to look at the program and how it is set up you would see that they have made changes. Call them up, they will state the exact price and the decision is yours. I know from you letter that you yourself has never owned your own business, if you had you would know that the 3 days to cancel is Minnesota law. Many of the other Mile High Clubs have 0 days to cancel it is dependent on the laws in the state. The reason that they do not refund right away is because most people that want to cancel get scared. They do not think they can meet people. They had the confidence to join, but then they look success in the eye and get scared. I can state many times that people went out after trying to cancel had a great and made great relationships. For example I know of two members who tried to cancel and now are either married or engaged.
         I am sorry if you felt pressured. I (Pam) being a school teacher, takes it as a compliment that I am called a high pressure sales person. I may use this as a reference if I ever choose to leave teaching. As for you canceling that was Gary's department. I left Mile High in Sept. because I actually met the love of my life at a Mile High event. You think you got a bad deal he paid for a two year membership and met me the first month he attended events.
         I know it is easy to blame others. But I think you need to take some ownership. I did not pull your money out or force you to sign the contract. I know I showed everyone the entire contract when I signed them up. I have never felt that I was selling a bad product. If Mile High did not work for people I feel they did not give it a chance. Only you can control your spending and behavior. Mile High has made some changes. Carolyn is now the owner and they are working to make it better for everyone. I do know also that there were at least 100 women in the club from 20 - 30.
         I would appreciate the accuracy of your letter to not include false accusation in reference to "Pam." Although flattered by the statement that I won the sale I have a hard time with that. The reason that MN has the 3 day clause is for the consumer to avoid second thoughts. I do believe I made an effort with you at the disco party. There is only so much one person can do. I do know in my heart I sold Mile High because it changed lives. I am only sorry that you did not choose to open up to making a change in your life. Like I said, I am no longer associated with the club. I am busy with my career and personal life. I can tell you Mile High is the best thing that ever happened to me I am truly in love. Through my two years with the club I saw first hand the difference it made in people's lives. I think you could find a way to help people and yourself. Anger never made anyone feel better. Maybe you were not ready to change your life, but there are people out there that are ready to make the best decision of their life.
         I wish good things for you - I hope you will take some ownership in your actions. Like I said I have little to no contact with the club but I feel your letter comes off as anger over your lack of commitment. We did sell contracts with guarantees so people could try out the club and cancel if unsatisfied. Maybe Mile High is just the thing you need to make a commitment to your social life.
Pam

From parts unknown

Thanks for the insights. I was thinking of joining this organization but have some heavy duty second thoughts as a result of your experience. So tell me, it's been about a month or so since you wrote this, have things started looking any better? The literature I received mentioned several events throughout the month that didn't seem bar related, but I'd rather hear what you have to say. And how about the man/woman ratio? Are any of these people reasonably attractive? I look forward to hearing from you. Good luck. I guess it's back to the drawing board for me...
Brad K.

From San Francisco Bay Area

         Like you, I am a mid-20's single man (27 anyway!). I work for a computer software company (big strike against me when it comes to meeting women) and live in the Bay Area, and the advertising here for MHAE is pretty solid on the two main radio stations that any young people listen to.
         Basically I went through the same as you - 1.5 hours of serious sales pitch, followed by the money issue. I was aghast. However, I ponied up $1,300 for the 'one-up-from-basic' membership deal (that includes the $500 up-front discount). However, I should point out that I earn considerably more than you ($50,000+) so maybe my idea of cost is more skewed.
         Anyway, I've only been to a few events yet, but I think I ought to point out some of the good things about MHAE (at least here in the Bay Area).

Certainly here there are a lot of people who have contacts for other jobs, roommates, stuff like that. Some of the guys I've met here are cool people who I look forward to hanging out with. One of the points made clear to me in my interview was that I shouldn't go into it only to meet chicks (the interviewers phrase, not mine!).
OK, (one of) the main reasons I joined was to meet women. So far I have done that. It's true that most of them are older than me (typically about 35 - 40) but in some ways that's great. They are interesting, intelligent, fun and often very attrractive. I was surprised that there were so many nice women there!
The final reason I decided to say yes (after 1.5 hours) was because of the chances it gave me. I am going white-water rafting next weekend, maybe parachuting later this year. Those are both things that I would almost certainly never get the chance to do, and certainly not with a group of young-ish single people.
I've also been out to a number of events at bars and clubs. You say that you could go to those anyway - well if what you say about yourself is true, then you sound very similar to me, personality-wise. In which case, would you REALLY like going there on your own. I hate rejection as much as the next man, and one of the great things about MHAE is that if I go to a bar/disco event, I can go up to a girl and ask her to dance, and know that she is single and will almost certainly say yes. Maybe that's all that will happen - we dance and then she disappears and I don't speak to her again, but at least she's not likely to turn round when I approach her and just say "Get lost, creep", which seems to happen in bars...

         I guess you may have had a worse experience in Minnesota than over here in the Bay Area (incidentally, the S.F. club is currently 52% women). I'm sorry - I think you were probably treated quite badly, but as you yourself said, Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware.
         The only point I would make is that I used to be very shy and joining MHAE actually helped a bit. Note that I said 'a bit'! Of course you may be more than a bit pissed off with them by now...
         Likewise I hope the Minnesota women appreciate nice guys like you.
Rory H.

San Francisco Bay Area

         I'm glad I saw this before I went on one of their interviews. I think I will either cancel or just not show up. I had some suspicions about them when I called to find our more about this organization. Any group/club/organization that cannot inform callers about the costs of joining their organization up front and over the phone will raise a red flag for me. The woman I spoke to on the phone wouldn't tell me much of anything at all. She was very eager to get me in to their offices for an interview. The word "interview" was a tip-off right away, too. When I asked how much events cost, she said "oh, you'll find out more when you come in for your interview." I bet these MHA people are on commission.
         I'm sure glad I did a web search before ever stepping foot into any MHA offices. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. When I called the main MHA number for this area, the rep. on the phone was very eager to get me in ... in fact she was more worried about the logistics of which office to go to (there are three in this area) than I was. You would have thought I was in a nearly life-threatening situation if I didn't go to the "right" office, according to the woman I spoke to. I think most people who inquire about this organization start with a "let me try this out first"/laid-back attitude, but are surprised at the hard sell they get from an organization that touts itself as a "casual" social club. If it is so casual, why all the secrecy about costs and urgency to get you in there when you call? I think that these folks operate much like a religious cult, Mary Kay Cosmetics, Amway, Great Expectations (that dating service) or any heavy-marketing corporation. I think they prey on people's fears and weaknesses to make money any way they can. As the old saying goes, "a fool and his money are soon parted." Thankfully I didn't part with any of my money.
         Thanks again for setting up the web posting. Glad to hear that things are going better for you and that you didn't get bilked out of too much money.

Thanks for the web posting,
M. R.

From San Francisco Bay Area

         Too funny!
         I just got back from my OWN harrowing experience with the Mile High interview! What a sales job! My experience matches yours exactly, and PLUS, she tried to use the "I have to try and pitch you" to my co-workers. Like they may say "no way" and not let you join the club. How ridiculous.
         I felt like they were trying to sell me a used car, and I told her that. She got very annoyed with me when I asked her not to use such a hard sell technique. I certainly don't respond well to those kinds of things.
         Glad I found your page. It reinforces what I thought, and clinches my decision not to join this group!
         Now that I look back at the events of the "interview", it seems almost comical the way the woman was pushing so hard. It was truly the first time I've EVER been sold to so strongly... At least it was interesting!
Jon B.

From San Francisco Bay Area

         I'm really glad that I found your page! MHAE had been advertising heavily here in the San Francisco Bay Area awhile ago. I remember that I called their number some months back, but I didn't remember how it went (I had a reason for not wanting to join then that has become a non-issue now.) When I found and read your experience on the web, it suddenly brought back the conversation I had with one of their reps on the phone. I remember asking them what the cost was. The person refused to say, insisiting that I had to come in for a "interview". Then I asked them to mail me the information. Again, they refused and told me to come in for an interview. I tried several more times to get some info from this person, but they were stuck on "come in for an interview." By this time, I figured that any business this secretive about their fees and activities was hiding something, so I didn't pursue it further. But since this was many months ago, I had forgotten this and was about to make this mistake again until I read your experience on your webpage.
         One interesting note: it would seem that the MHAE that started business here some months back is now OUT of business. I can no longer find their webpage on the net. What a surprise, huh? ;-D
         By the way, I am really sorry to hear that they f_____d you up like they did. Hopefully, they will get theirs someday.
Jazzcat

From San Francisco Bay Area

         I just signed up for MHAE last Sat, and it's been haunting me all weekend. I signed up for the 1 year package, which is $1295 here. I then told some colleagues at work, and they immediately told me it was a stupid thing to do, and that you legally have 3 days to cancel the agreement.
         My contract, however, does NOT have a clause on it anywhere which states that you can cancel. There is a clause in paragraph one which DOES state "...After execution of this Membership Agreement, the same may not be canceled or terminated for any reason whatsoever by Member. Any changes, alterations, modifications or special circumstances concering this cancellation policy must be in writing and signed by the client and an authorized officer of MHAE in order to be enforcable. (initial here)"
         Does that mean I'm screwed anyway? California law does state that "dating service" contracts should in 10 point font list the clause which states that you have the right to terminate within 3 days. I can't find it on this contract. And I was in the same boat as you, I didn't notice the back side till this morning. Very sneaky.
         You're right, though, that pitch was quite intense... though I experienced some SERIOUS sticker shock when I saw that pricing sheet, which almost made me walk out. I thought, what the hell though when I signed it, thinking maybe I can get my money back. Little did I consider that they'd have the clause.
         I'll keep you posted as to what my results are. I'm writing a letter of cancelation and sending it certified mail today.
         I got a call back just 5 min. ago, and they asked me why I decided that, I made up an excuse that I was probably going to move away from the area, so they said "okay, it will take about 14 days". I sent written notice to back it up, listing my rights as a consumer, though now with the oral "agreement" of cancelation, I may have gone too far :-) (If you can read Word '97 docs, I'd be happy to send you a copy of the letter). We'll see what happens. I'll let you know. If they refund all of my money and don't bill me in the future, then I guess I'd have to say I'm satisfied w/ that part, but probably only because it is the law.
B Regards,
Rick J.

         Thanks for the excellent info on the page. It was just what I was looking for! I was scanning other people's pages for critical reviews, but found only happy-go-lucky stuff. Your page describes it like I was expecting.
         My situation? I am going on the interview tomorrow morning. I'll make sure to bring some expired credit cards because they specifically asked me for three forms of id: a drivers licence and two major credit cards!
         Sorry about your terrible experience. Be assured that your web page is helping others who are savvy enough to investigate!
Alex K

Your page is right on with my experience. I wish I had seen your page before my interview. I joined for the shortest period I could (there's no 3 day clause in California), and after my first event I shook my head. On the positive side, some of the events are interesting and I'm trying to force myself to go so that at the very least I get some cool experiences under my belt (Sky diving, rock climbing, etc). But I think your account is accurate, despite the responses from some of the Mile High Employees.
Bryant H.

From San Francisco Bay Area:

         I was intrigued by the barrage of radio ads of the mile-high clubs of the San Francisco Bay Area. I decided to check out their webpage (pacificfun.com I think) to get some additional information. Within the site was a "calendar" of events which listed 2 or 3 events a day. Upon closer examination it appears that the calendar is just a "sample" of events within a generic month.
          Still, I was interested. I sent an e-mail and asked that they contact me by e-mail (I certainly didn't want to be answering dating questions at work). The following Saturday I got a call at home from MHAE telling me that they weren't allowed to e-mail answers. When I asked the price I was told that I'd have to come in for an interview. Immediately I flashed back to the time I heard the exact same phrase from a gym I was interested in joining and ended up buying an entire unused membership. Still, I almost agreed to the interview, but I couldn't figure out which club to join (there are 2 in the immediate area) and got the interviewer's name and number and said I would call back after I thought about it.
         Then I started doing some web searching. I couldn't even find any newspaper articles on the club, none the less personal experiences. I knew I wouldn't go any further until i had an approximate cost. Then I did an ebay search, and lo and behold there was someone selling their membership. The person listed the average yearly membership cost and I went "whoa!" I still was considering calling, but I just wasn't interested in getting the run-around, and I'm far to busy to be dropping everything to have a 2 hour "interview."
          In short, if I had the prices up front, I probably would have gone for it, but the sneaky, tight-lipped way everything is handled left a bad taste in my mouth and now after finding your page, I'm glad I didn't proceed. It's too bad, too because I think it really would have potential.
         I never did receive any further calls pestering me to set up an interview. At least they left me alone.
Marisa E.